Comments on: Exploring the Continued Vitality of 25 Man Raiding

By: Cataclysm Final Grades: The State of the Guild « Tree Heals Go Woosh

Cataclysm Final Grades: The State of the Guild « Tree Heals Go Woosh — Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:38:00 +0000

[...] I can say about the change to the raiding lockout system that hasn’t already been said by Beru or Squelchy (and Squelchy, as another member of CoD, gives specific insight into the way our guild [...]

By: Sinpree

Sinpree — Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:04:08 +0000

I think you were on to something when you mentioned an older player base. I am sure a solid base of the raiding community started playing the game in Vanilla or in BC which means that most of that player base is in their late 20s or even early 30s. When you get older your priorities change and I think the kind of guild you look for is different. I know as someone in my late 20s I wouldn’t deal with some of the raiding guilds I was in during Vanilla or BC just from a maturity stand point. Older players are looking for a mature close knit raiding environment. A lot of the time 25 mans guilds are just to big and don’t have as close of a community feel that a smaller guild can provide. You tend to get a lot more clicks in 25man guilds where in 10man guilds you have more of a family feel to it, knowing everyone very closely. Also allows for the more semi-hardcore raiding that so many players are seeking now a days, 2-3 days a week but yet still doing heroics.

At the end of the day I think Blizzard really needs to just move to one raid format if that is 10man 15man or whatever it is. I remember when people freaked out about when 40man raiding went away in BC for 25man guilds and the community did just fine learning to accept 25man raiding. Them focused on one raid size would create much better content as well, to many fights I think suffer in each of the raid sizes because Blizzard has to make sure the fight can reasonable be done in each size or be changes in a certain way to accommodate the smaller or larger raid teams. Hell even zone design would improve since you wouldn’t have to make super large rooms that feel to big in 10man or make rooms that fit 10mans better but feel really small for a 25man guild.

By: Thursday

Thursday — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 17:57:46 +0000

This has echoes of some of your other posts over the last few months, and the theme that rings familiar in my ears is that of hybridization. I think that a huge part of how Blizz keeps raiders raiding is the loot-carrot. Want loot? Do a 5man. Want better loot? LFR. Want even better yummier loot than that? 10s. Want even more juicier yummier loot? Raid….oh wait. That’s it. The equalization of loot – the hybridization of loot – has really killed the incentive to do 25s. Cata made this even worse because not only did we get equalization of loot, we got equalization of mechanics, more or less. In 25s you have bosses with bigger health pools to account for more raiders, but apart from a very few mechanical subtleties, there’s just not much difference. You get to see the same content and mechanics and get the same loot, so why have the extra burden of the increased organizational difficulties that 25s (not LFR) bring? Blizz needs to give raiders a reason to raid 25s I think.

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:15:17 +0000

I know that you already know my opinions on this from our many conversations on the topic. But I feel that I should reply to you just so you don’t feel left out!

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:13:08 +0000

Jedi robes? That is your first mistake!

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:12:21 +0000

I disagree that 25s allow you more “slack” to train or bring average players. A lot of times there is a more strict requirement out of 25s players than there is of 10s and you don’t always get to make more mistakes. I think that the whole “10s let you ditch the slack” is overstated and not necessarily true.

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:09:47 +0000

I do think that guild perks keep people from moving to a new guild. I think that it was somewhat intended to work that way, but I also think that there are some negative effects as a result. I get that it was supposed to build “importance” into being/retaining a guild – but I also think it has kept some folks in unhealthy environments or prevented them from making a move that they may have made otherwise.

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:06:56 +0000

I agree that the shared lockout hurt a lot of guilds. I’d like to see them implement an unlimited lockout similar to LFR – but I’m not sure if that would help to solve anything either.

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:05:22 +0000

I think I will agree that no new 25 man guilds forming is a huge problem with the continued survivability of that raid format. I also agree that the somewhat sterile, no need to socialize, aspect that is currently present is very detrimental to the game as a whole. What is so unfortunate about that is that there is no reason it has to be that way…it’s just how players choose to interact with each other. Which is absolutely disapointing.

By: Beruthiel

Beruthiel — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:02:09 +0000

I think 2-3 progression 25s on each realm is optimistic. Up until this final tier in Cataclysm I think we might have been the only guild still running 25s on the server. I know that there are a good number of servers with zero 25 man progression guilds and are all 10s.

I guess for me, I think I’d almost prefer Blizzard to swap to one raid size (whatever it may be) and refocus on making exceptional content for that one raid size. I think it may not be worth the development hours to continue to cater to two sizes, and that we may be receiving worse content because of it.