Responsibility and Respecting Other’s Time   18 comments

In an effort to try and prepare myself for Vidalya’s run this weekend, I have been fervently running HoT heroics like they were going out of style. Having hit 85 only two weeks ago, I didn’t want to show up and be “that person”. By Friday night the key piece that I was missing was a helm. My beloved heirloom helm, while trustworthy, needed to go. I wanted a meta gem. I wanted to enchant it. I just wanted a new hat, dammit! That is how I ended up in End Time late Friday Night – most likely to be disappointed, yet again, when Murzanod forgot that he had a leather caster helm in his loot table.

After accepting my queue I found myself zoning into Sylvanas, with a dead group. This is never a good sign. But it seems it’s an all guild group, so how bad can it be? Famous last words, I know. I wait until everyone is there, and then buff, and advise the group that I am ready to go. The tank, a DK, pulls. And the very first time Sylvanas drops her purple pile of doom, the DK doesn’t move out of it, and dies. No big, I’m a druid, so I rez her. However, as soon as the zombies spawn the DK cuts herself in half on the purple lasers – and we wipe. So we run back in to get ready to go.

And we wait. And wait. And wait.

After roughly 5 minutes passes, the warrior in the group advises me that he’s going to tank and we pull. The DK is still blood, but whatever. We get to the zombie part, and the DK cuts herself in half on the purple lazers….again. We wipe. Once again, I release and run back. The group thanks me for being so patient – I suspect the healer that left was not. I get there, buff and we wait.

And wait, and wait, and wait.

The DK finally indicates that she’s ready, and I ask her if she has something other than a blood spec, and she says “Oh, opps, I just put unholy presence on”. No, not presences, do you have something other than a tank spec? Finally she swaps to a frost spec, and we pull. We get to the part with the zombies, surprisingly she lives! However, she dies immediately after when she doesn’t move out of the purple goo. Whatever, we ultimately won and can move on. I portal myself to the next shrine and, you guessed it!

I wait. And wait. And wait. Probably about 10 minutes this time.

Now, I generally have a lot of patience for players who seem a little green. Who clearly don’t have a lot of experience with a zone. I mean, people have got to start somewhere, right? And it’s not going to do them any good to have people raging at them about how terrible they are, or how stupid they are, because they don’t know what they are doing. In fact, it’s likely counter productive to their improvement as a player. So I try to be an understanding person, and try to be helpful and patient. But…these AFKs are starting to wear on me.

Finally someone in the group, probably the DK’s significant other, says “sorry, she’s back, little ones! Twins!”.

And so we pull the totem guy, and we wipe somewhere around 10%. ARGH! Alright, no big deal, we are REALLY close, we’ve got this. So we release and run back. And if you guessed that we waited around for another five or ten minutes, you’d be absolutely right! Finally, after another AFK we are ready to go. But we wipe again. People just couldn’t figure out how to get out of the damn lava. At this point, my patience is starting to fray. Because I know that a wipe means another five or ten minute AFK, and at this point we’ve had roughly forty minutes of AFKs…in an instance that can be cleared in fifteen.

As we get back and wait, yet again, I say to the group “I don’t really want to leave the group, and I understand the reason for the constant AFKs, but in the future you may want to find a guild healer or a healer from your realm who  understands the situation, and doesn’t mind all of the AFKs during the run”. I thought this was a fairly diplomatic way of letting the group know that the AFKs were really starting to wear me down. The response I got? “Stop your bitching”.

Really? REALLY?!

I told them that I didn’t mind learning the encounters with them, but that it was a little unfair to pick up a healer via the LFD tool and expect them to sit through so many AFKs throughout the course of a very short instance. To which I was told “Well, life isn’t fair, stop bitching”. Finally the DK gets back and says “Well, I have babies who need tending too, and they are a little more important than this”.


I completely, 100% agree with that statement. Your children are more important than this instance. But have a little fucking common courtesy for the others in your group, would you? Had our roles been reversed, about the second or third time that I had to step away from the computer to tend to my small children I probably would have come back to the group, said “sorry guys, this is a bad time” and asked them to find a replacement. But instead, the expectation was that my time wasn’t also  valuable and I was in the wrong for commenting on that.

I didn’t really want to drop the group. We’d already killed a boss, I was going to be locked into it, and I wanted a chance at the last guy in the zone. But here I was, being held hostage by the group. I couldn’t vote to kick the DK because it was an all guild group. So if I wanted to leave, I was not only going to be penalized with a 30 minute deserter debuff but had the possibility of being locked out of the zone. At this point, I was seeing red.

I asked the group to kick me.

And when I asked I got yet another “stop bitching, leave if you want”. I didn’t want to leave, I didn’t want a deserter debuff, that wasn’t fair to me. I shouldn’t be penalized for 30 minutes because I didn’t want to sit through an extensive AFK each time we wiped, which was multiple times each boss – through no fault of my own. I asked again to be kicked. Finally the group relented and I was removed.

As I raged to Brade, he said “heh, I probably would have left before they killed the first boss and taken the 30 minutes”. And in hind sight, I would have spent less time trying to clear the zone had I done just that. But I didn’t. I tried to stick it out and help an obviously inexperienced group of players through the zone – and then in no uncertain terms got told to piss off. I was livid.

Here’s the thing. I 100% agree that this woman should care for her small children and it should be more important than slaying internet dragons. However, if the children were requiring so much of her attention she should not have been participating in a group activity unless the entirety of the group was on board with her needed so much time. To expect a completely random person, with absolutely zero ties to you whatsoever, to just be OK with that is an unfair assumption on that person’s time. And it’s disrespectful. To basically be told, via the group’s actions, that my time wasn’t important was a slap in the face.

I understand that life happens. I absolutely encourage people to tend to life and to prioritize it over a video game. But in doing so, please have the courtesy to also be respectful of those around you. If you don’t have the time to commit to a group activity, don’t. If something occurs during a group activity that requires your attention, tend to it. But don’t hold the group, or members of the group, hostage while doing so. You understand that your time is valuable, but please also understand that other people’s time is equally as valuable to them and should also be treated with respect.

Posted April 2, 2012 by Beruthiel in /rant, Brain Dump, PuGalicious

18 responses to “Responsibility and Respecting Other’s Time

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  1. I couldn’t agree more. I usually don’t comment in posts, I mainly stay at the sidelines either thinking about it on my own or forgetting what I read after I leave the page. However, this hit a cord within me. I have been in such situations more than I can remember. I have also been into situations where the group was amazing, or where we had lots of laughs, it’s certainly not all bad. But these sort of encounters make me want to introduce a tool in wow where you not only capture bits and pieces of information from the party chat but the whole dungeon “experience”. How can you report something like this? And do you ever get any justice? No. The only thing you can do is move on and to be honest I do, but could we maybe, possibly, if it’s not too much to ask Blizzard, something in return for our patience and understanding?

  2. Funny you should say you don’t get a desert debuff if you are kicked because i usually get a 10 minute like timeout that wont let me re queue . But I completely understand your situation and completely agree with you. I have also been on the receiving end and/or being with the groups of guildies who are taking too much time, acting embarrassed toward the pug in the group because I am not used to making people/groups wait.

    I think LFD has made random groups lose the common courtesy of treating the other people in the group nicely. Specially since after 15 minutes you probably wont see that person again. So its easier to be rude or an ass to complete strangers.

    /hugs Beru I hope you did get your helm eventually.

  3. Well, I say good on ya Beru. You did far more than most people in the LFG community ever do. A good friend and I both just got another set of alts to 85 this past weekend, and because we loathe LFR in its entirety, resolved to gear up in 5 mans. On our first dungeon we had a tank – frankly a very very inexperienced tank – who, well….struggled. My friend and I coached him through the instance, and in doing so we went through 9 other dpssers who did little more than rage at the pace or aggro and left. Not one of them left anything like civilly. But you know what? An hour later, when HoA was finally cleared, he was doing better and was really grateful that we took the time to help. I offer that up to say that patient people in LFG are far too uncommon, or even decently civilized ones, and don’t let one set of jerks deter you from civility and promotion of improvement. Good on ya Beru!

  4. Do keep in mind that you don’t get the deserter debuff if the group has wiped, you only have the 15 minute LFD CD to worry about, and being kicked doesn’t save that. Also, being kicked before either a single boss is down or the group has wiped will now result in the deserter debuff, because people were using it for the exact same reason you were.

    With that said, I completely agree with you on the idea of time management, It’s something that I’ve seen in a lot of games, I just read a similar complaint about people being unable to use the bathroom before a BG.

  5. I’m also tolerant of “newbie” groups and I don’t mind explaning and wiping. But honestly, at the first “stop bitching” I would have reacted a lot worse. As in: “ah ok, so I try to help and you insult me? Ok, want afk time? you have it, I’m alt-tabbing to another MMO while you spend your time looking at the scenery”.
    A sure way to get kicked 🙂

    • Haha… I like this option. I wouldn’t have waited until they were rude though, I would do it just to show them what it’s like to wait, before they inevitably kick me because they themselves actually have no patience for other people afking.

  6. I had a similar experience this weekend. My lil’druid has only recently gotten to 85 and through a very random assortment of BoEs is technically ready to heal heroics. A friend and I queued up and got BRC. The tank messed up every single boss pull. I was tearing my hair out from lack of mana and lack of time to remember what each boss did that healer need to care about. (My main is a tank.) After we wiped on Beauty due to no CC on the pups, the tank actually said “If I’m standing in front of a boss be ready for me to pull.”
    I tried to politely tried to explain that the other 4 of us were people too and deserving of respect and consideration. But this guy actually said he was the only one who mattered. After the red haze cleared from my vision I tried to kick him. When that didn’t pass my friend and I both dropped group.

    Tanks like that are why LFG and tanking get a bad rap. Grrrrr….

  7. To be honest it sounds like you were much politer than I would have managed to be in that situation. There often seems to be a attitude amongst some players that it is completely valid for them to afk/ not concentrate whenever they like because “it’s only a game” and “RL is more important”. The really irritating thing about this attitude is that they are right, it is only a game and RL is more important. However to inflict yourself on others when you can’t commit properly to the activity always strikes me as staggeringly selfish and self absorbed.

    It reminds me of the old WoW saying “It might be your $15 a month but it is the raids $375”.

  8. – I think I’ve read somewhere that you get the deserter debuff now even if you’re kicked. Not 100% sure on this.
    – From the title, I thought your post was going to be about people who always come late to a raid. Heh. Problem we’d been having, and since our realm is so low-pop, not like they can be replaced.
    – And yeah, those people sucked. Don’t worry, karma’s going to come back and slap them in the face.

  9. They had NO RIGHT to cuss at you, that makes me almost as mad as how inconsiderate and selfish these people are. I’ve been reading a thread on the forums on and off titled “I’m a happy space goat”. The OP is a casual who talks about farming for pets, dancing in the fountain, ect. And how much they love this game. Most of the posters are cheering them on and agreeing, “I am that kind of player”. I am fine with all that, this is a game and it should be fun. Absolutely! If you tame a spirit beast on your hunter and share your overbubbling joy in trade chat I will congratulate you or /cheer you if I see you by the bank.

    But as soon as you join a group, be it LFR or LFD it’s not just about you anymore. And your fun does not have overriding priority on my fun. If it’s not fun for you to gem your gear, stay out of the mechanics or know the basics of your class why is it fun for me to carry you? Especially if you have an attitude about it? I am more than happy to help somebody out if they are willing to learn or do some carrying. I’ve been the noob at times, I know I’ve been carried (sometimes more recently than I like to admit!). But there is a line between getting a ride and being abusive and I see it crossed all the time. That group definitely was in the wrong.

    As a mom who’s had to apologize to a group and leave politely because of my child I will say that woman was WRONG. So was her significant other. Having twins is NO excuse for behaving like that!

  10. I had a similar experience last night doing a satchel run on Peach. I zoned into VP thinking “great, quick run even if undergeared/green group”. Well, after 25 minutes had passed and we weren’t even at the 3rd trash pack I was starting to wonder what I’d gotten myself into. The tank afk’d before almost every pull, or seemed to as he’d just stand there- then walk into the mobs to “pull” them- usually landing me with healing aggro then telling me I was “healing too much”. The two hunters in the group had their pets on passive, and due to the language barrier I was experiencing we couldn’t quite figure out how to get their pets to attack 90% of the instance.
    I had close to 40k more HP than our Paladin tank (again, no big deal- until I realized he was in ret gear with a sort of tank spec and was almost getting 1 shot by trash). I was patient, I was innervating and mana potting on trash/bosses to keep people alive. We made it through boss one, almost 40 minutes into the run. Shaman dc’s, we get a warlock that also appears to be either a fresh 85, or new to the game entirely. No big deal. We make it to the 2nd boss, it takes us just over 4.5 minutes to kill him (I had to tree-p-s) and then I was told that if I attempted to help dps again, I would be kicked as I am the healer.
    Well, there goes my idea of a language barrier- I guess they just don’t want their pets attacking? We get to the groups with the temple adepts that heal. I mark the group(s) and cc accordingly. Am again told it’s not my place to CC or mark things. I am a healer, not a tank or dps. All the while trying to be helpful. After about 70 minutes we made it to the last boss. The tank goes “everyone know boss?” I go, “I do, you can jump to avoid static cling or I can dispel you- please move into the purple triangle when he casts it or it will likely kill you to be outside of it”. The tank goes “this is heroic, dispel or we kick you”. Again, I just remain quiet, hoping we 1 shot this boss that will likely take 5 minutes given our total combined dps of about 12k (when I help).
    I don’t usually mind getting put in with new to 85 players, or new to the game/spec entirely however due to the run taking over an hour- and being told to “do my job” or they’d kick me I think it’s going to be awhile before I do a satchel run again. Oh- my satchel of wonder? 43g and ONE mythical healing potion- I had such high, high hopes for that satchel I worked pretty darn hard to get lol.

    • I’ve actually completely given up on groups like this… any sign of incompetence that’s looking likely to lead to them being rude to me because they’re idiots and I just leave these days. Random strangers being rude to me ruins my gaming experience, so I don’t want it.

  11. Actually, I thinh you don’t have to wait for 30mn debuff if you have been doing the instance for a long time. Sometime, you would have 7mn, 5mn or nothing at all

  12. Beru
    I completely agree with you. I am (usually) more than happy to sit through most crap in a LFR or LFG, because everyone has to start somewhere. I am usually the one defending the green tank, low dps, or inexperienced healer. I will try to give advice, encouragement, etc. Unless I a stupid, and get in a group with Dendrite, then I get snarky as him (group mentality maybe??). The only thing that gets me mad/irritated, is AFKing without a heads up. That is the quickest way to loose an ally in me. I understand stuff comes up, but at least put your AFK flag up, even if you dont have the 10 seconds it takes to say, “Afk, a baby fell down a well” or whatever.

  13. and remember the “Ignore” button is your friend.

    I can stand a moderate amount of incompetence / inexperience but rude annoys me a lot.

    Must admit LFG is a really good idea but I sometimes long for the good old days when you had to assemble your group by hand. Admitably it is easy now to forget the hour waits but I made some good friends and acquired some guildies from them. And being rude to me meant you did not get invited again.

  14. I’m one of those people who tries to have as much patience as possible with other people. We were all new once. But I’m also a big believer in not wasting valuable time for anyone else, either. One unannounced AFK is forgivable. Two is not. Especially not for a total of fifteen minutes. What makes this worse is that they never volunteered the information until what, 20+ minutes of waiting time? These are people that really shouldn’t be using LFD at all, and are the true target market for the upcoming scenarios (or whatever they’re called). The rest of us just get them as a bonus.

    Situations like this are why I’m glad there’s an ignore feature, and that it blocks future group matches. This much compiled rudeness was uncalled for, and I’d make very sure I never had to group with them again, anywhere.

    Pixelated Executioner
  15. You only get deserter if you leave early on. After about 20-30 mins, you don’t get a penalty. If previous players have left, you may also avoid the penalty after leavi g 5 mins in. Although this second one is a gamble.
    I’ve left plent of groups after 2 wipes like the ones you describe only to deal with the remaining time out of the 15 min random queue timer.

  16. You have way more patience than I do. I don’t mind the occasional AFK, life happens, but if it’s a constant thing then sorry, my time in game can be limited so I’m not going to waste it sitting on my butt waiting for people.

    I’m not a mum myself yet, so I am not experienced in these things, but surely if your little ones need that amount of attention then you shouldn’t be in a dungeon. It’s not fair on the other players.

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